briarwood | Red alert

Every time fandom has the warnings-on-fic debate, I wonder what kind of warning would actually make me skip reading a fic, all other things being equal. There are genres of fic I avoid: MPreg and GenderSwap (the former because pregnancy=icky and the latter because it's never done realistically IMO). So yeah, those do make me skip. But the weird things people warn about (I'm never gettin' over the haircut warning) mostly confuse me.

A couple of days ago

jencat004 posted a wincest fic called Smokin'. Along with the fic, the author posted a "warning": Dean smokes, and if you really want to bitch about the wrongness of THAT, and not the fact that two brothers are sucking each others dicks, well, quite frankly, I can't help you.

I didn't read the fic. That warning is more than sufficient for me to skip it.

The truth is, it bothers me a hell of a lot more for a fic to portray any of these characters as a smoker than the whole incest thing bothers me. And I don't feel I need "help" in any way because of that. (Actually, the defensive tone of the warning tells me the author already believes she's in the wrong. But what the hell. I'm just explaining it to me.)

Part of it is characterisation. When a fictional character lights up a cigarette, that immediately sends a signal that this character is an inconsiderate git who values his or her own addiction above the health and comfort of everyone in the vicinity. It says that the character is careless of their own health and fitness. It says he or she stinks to high heaven (fag-stink is worse than body odour. Seriously). Most of all, it says that the character is sexually repulsive because getting that up close and personal with someone who smokes...frankly eating vomit would be more pleasant. This is so much the opposite of Dean Winchester that I'm more likely to accept a fanfic!Dean listening to Britney Spears and driving a yellow Smart Car than I am him lighting up a fag.

Part of it is my relaxed attitude to fictional incest.

jencat004's comment implies that I should find something wrong with two brothers sucking each other's dicks. Well, sorry, but I don't. Firstly - as a gay woman I have no problem with two guys sucking each other's dicks and frankly I have a problem with anyone who does. But let's assume she didn't mean to imply that the gay part of that sentence is the wrongness.

So, okay...it's because they're brothers. Well, I grew up on a reading diet of Heinlein so the fact that they're related doesn't even make me blink. Nor would it in real life, if I believed it was a healthy and consensual relationship. Like that couple in Germany. (IMHO it was extremely irresponsible of them to have children, given the high probablity of birth defects, but I fully support their fight to be together.) For Sam and Dean, well, babies aren't an issue, so why should anyone have a problem with their relationship, the way slash authors portray it? If it were non-consensual, or child abuse, that's different. But I'm talking about loving, consensual sex between adults. Why, exactly, should I consider that wrong? I don't grok it, sorry.

There are good reasons why TV characters today are rarely portrayed as smokers. If Supernatural were made in the 1970's, yeah, I'm sure Dean would be a smoker. He'd probably be a racist, too. And a misogynist. And a homophobe. They are equally unacceptable in the hero of a 21st century show.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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Everything you said, but mostly... Out of Character! Might just as well have Jim waving his hands as he spouts enthusiastically about interesting police cases and peppering his speech with 'man'. Dean may have a number of bad habits, but smoking isn't one of them. Sheesh!

I grew up on a reading diet of Heinlein.

You're the second person to mention that in relation to being open-minded and accepting about things other people frown on. I read every Heinlein novel several times -- started when I was 11 -- but it never occurred to me that he was "teaching" me to be open-minded; his stories just made so much sense to me.

As for the bro & sis in Germany, yeah. They could easily have avoided having children (and should have), but their sleeping together harms no one.

if I believed it was a healthy and consensual relationship.

That's the key. Too many times, incest is an older sib (or parent!) preying on a younger. I won't read daddycest in SPN, but I figure the brothers are close enough that starting a relationship would really be no surprise.
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You're the second person to mention that in relation to being open-minded and accepting about things other people frown on.

Yeah. There's a lot about Heinlein I've come to dislike - his notion that the ideal woman is a nymphomaniac being top of the list! But on some things, he had it right. I was lucky, growing up. My mum has this idea that science fiction is for kids, so as long as it was SF she never vetted my reading or viewing. Got my first Heinlein novel at age 10 and I learned more about morality from him than I ever learned in school or church.

I won't read daddycest in SPN, but I figure the brothers are close enough that starting a relationship would really be no surprise.

It's harder to make John/boys convincing, but I don't have a problem with it if the author works to make it real.

John's sexy as hell...I guess I'd read him paired with anyone as long as it's hot! LOL!

But you're right about Sam and Dean - in a slash universe, anyhow.

Incest just squicks me, period, whatever sexuality it's with.

As for smoking, Torri smokes, you know.

As for smoking, Torri smokes, you know.

You say that like it should change my opinion or something.

Smoking is a filthy habit and anyone who does it in the presence of others is knowingly and deliberately endangering their health. End of story.

Na, I'm not. Don't get me wrong, babe, I completely agree with you on the subject. I developed asthma from 15 years of passive smoking.

I just came across this, and it kind of makes me blink because it's hard for me to believe that Dean *isn't* a smoker, or at least used to be one. It's not a personality thing so much as a class and circumstances thing.

Dean is poor, ill-educated, misogynistic enough to tease his brother about being "girly", had an ex-military father (American military men smoke like chimneys), and grew up on the American road. It would be very hard for a man who grew up the way he did *not* to be a smoker, it's part of the culture.

And this is entirely aside from the role of tobacco in American magical practice, which goes back well before 1492.

Does that mean he has the characteristics you associate with smokers? We-e-ell, yeah, but most of those characteristics are part of the subculture he's in, not just him. Dean's subculture is too poor to value cleanliness, smelling nice, or good health as highly as you or I do -- it places a lot more emphasis on social bonding and on anything that lets you get by on less food and sleep.

That said, it's completely possible that he quit when Sam came back, because I agree that Dean smoking would drive Sam *bugfuck*.

By your logic, he should also be racist, misogynist, near-illiterate and let's not forget homophobic. That's certainly how the media portrays the subculture you're talking about. Two of those he's certainly not, on one there's no canon either way and the fourth can be argued.

Fact is in nearly 40 episodes he hasn't been seen to smoke, even in situations where it would be natural to light up. Fact is the single canon reference to Dean and smoking is when he says it would be "like" him; which may imply he's smoked at some point in his life. Sure. Most teenagers try it.

You describe a subculture - and I can't argue the description, not being American - but to suggest that Dean or John any other TV character must automatically fit those stereotypes is nonsense.

I'm not talking about literary realism. I'm talking about canon and characterisation. So maybe the show doesn't perfectly portray the culture.

Red alert

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