Someone tell the weather it's still May

[briarwood]

Too damn hot!

The good news is on Saturday I finished the match-ups for spn_summergen. I just need the approval of my co-mods (that'll take a while, as my spreadsheet needs to be checked quite carefully) and then we can work on sending out the assignments next week - right on schedule. I enjoy the matching job: it's a challenge that suits me, but it takes a lot of intensive work.

A lot of post-apocalypse prompts this year...not really a surprise given the season's subject matter. A lot of requests for crossovers with procedural shows. I don't get that. I mean, I understand those shows are popular, SPN is so complex, with real characterisation, relationships, complicated plot arcs...it just seems odd to me that someone who enjoys that would also enjoy the shallow world of procedurals. The crossover prompts are always fun, though. I guess as a mod I should refrain from commentary, but there was one I really wished I could have matched, just to see how the story would turn out...even though it was a fandom I dislike. But the only one who offered that fandom was the person who requested it. No match possible, although maybe the person who gets that prompt set will know the fandom.

I spent Sunday trapped in the special Hell known as "a family barbeque" all day. Sis insisted we do it, since the weather is good and might not stay that way. I made lemonade from real lemons. And did my best to stay out of the way. Sis thought it was a good idea to save lighting the charcoal until last, with the result that it took forever to get hot enough to cook on. But it was nice eating outside, and the dogs had fun begging everyone for a share.

This week will hopefully be more relaxing. I plan to catch up on my other commitments and then write fic. Good plan.

Comments

[shanaqui]

How many procedurals have you ever watched more than a couple of episodes of? If you just catch one or two, you don't see much character development or anything, because it is very episodic. I couldn't watch four episodes of NCIS in a day the way I am doing, though, if that were all they have to offer. One thing I loved following in more recent seasons of NCIS was a certain character's romantic development after a lot of sleeping around. Another thing I love is one of the female characters' continuing theme of critique of the masculine institutions she runs up against (for example, not being allowed on a submarine, despite being a special agent, just because she's a woman). Watching more than a handful of episodes reveals more complexity to characters you don't necessarily like that much when just watching a single episode.

I appreciate that you don't like procedurals, but I kinda... resent, I guess, how dismissive you are of them/people who like them, by calling them shallow?

Besides, watching them, it's funny how easily comparable the early seasons of SPN are to a procedural. Opening of a typical episode of NCIS: a body is discovered. Opening of a typical episode of SPN in season one: something supernatural occurs, often resulting in messy death. Next part in NCIS: the agents find out about the discovery of the body and go to check it out. Next part in Supernatural: Sam and Dean find out about the event and go to check it out. NCIS: a period of research, including going to the site, interviews, searching the internet, etc. SPN: a period of research, including going to the site, interviews, searching the internet, etc. NCIS: the killer is discovered. SPN: they figure out what they're dealing with. NCIS: they somehow catch the killer, often by forcing a confession. SPN: they somehow stop the supernatural events, often involving salt and fire.

Agreed, though, about the weather. It needs to get cooler, soon. Fortunately, the weather forecast says it will, in my area. Woo.

[briarwood]

How many procedurals have you ever watched more than a couple of episodes of? If you just catch one or two, you don't see much character development or anything, because it is very episodic.

Fair point. I've seen several seasons of both Numb3rs and Bones. The former has some depth of character, the latter really didn't. And I watched a full season of something else that was frankly so generic I couldn't tell you the title now - it may have been CSI or Criminal Minds. So I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere.

The difference between those shows and Supernatural is episodes of the procedurals (with a few exceptions) are about the case; the regular characters exist to illuminate the crime or the investigative methodology. On Supernatural the reverse is true: the case illuminates the characters. So although, yes, there is character development and relationships between characters that change and evolve on the procedurals, I don't find the complexity in those relationships that I do in the shows I enjoy.

Most shows are to some extent formulaic, especially in their first season. Formula doesn't preclude depth. NCIS may be an exception, actually. I haven't seen much of it but from what I have seen I wouldn't class it with most of the procedurals. It's more akin to the previous generation of crime-based shows: it's about the characters who investigate the crimes, not so heavily focussed on the crime/procedure.

I'm not being dismissive of people who like them. Nor of the shows themselves, not really. What people want out of a TV show is unique to them - clearly the procedural genre is giving a lot of people what they want or it wouldn't be so darn popular. I just find it strange that people like both. But me saying that isn't me pointing a finger and saying "you're weird"; it's me saying I don't get it. My failure, no judgement intended.

[shanaqui]

I always found CSI really boring, yeah; different procedurals are different in focus, which is why it's difficult to class them together. I think NCIS and Supernatural are more closely comparable than some: trying to think of SPN episodes that are very routine still yields some characterisation, for example the one in season one with the curse and the bees still has the comparisons between that family and the Winchesters, and it's the same with NCIS, I can think of little bits of character building for most episodes. In some procedural shows, the characters all blur into each other for me, whereas a lot of the characters in NCIS are pretty distinctive.

I'm pretty interested in cop shows and the like since I did a module on crime fiction. In crime fiction novels, the pure procedural format was pretty short-lived, probably because it does get boring and mundane, but a lot of novels have procedural elements -- Ian Rankin's and Val McDermid's works, for example. Now I'm thinking about tracking the trends in cop shows... if I had a lot more spare time for it. I suspect there's not much that's pure procedural, but they'll deal with it in different ways... NCIS by having quirky/interesting characters, for example.

[briarwood]

"Procedural" =/= "Cop show" I think that's where the confusion comes in. Starsky and Hutch or Miami Vice weren't procedurals, but they had the same crime-of-the-week format. Like SPN. But there's a huge qualitative difference between those shows and the likes of CSI.

I can understand the appeal of procedurals from the point of view of being interested in the actual procedures: that's why I watched so much of Bones (the science interested me) and Numb3rs (because I'm a statistician and it's fun to watch Charlie misuse statistical analysis). I just don't understand how people get so invested in the characters when, to me, the characters are barely even there. I can tell people do get invested. I just don't get it.

I suspect there's not much that's pure procedural, but they'll deal with it in different ways... NCIS by having quirky/interesting characters, for example.

Sure. The crime-of-the-week format is tried and tested: it gives show runners a familiar hook to draw the viewers in, it's a good-vs-evil paradigm, it lends itself well to the five-act drama necessitated by network TV - and you can take it in lots of different directions. You could start with...Sherlock Holmes, I guess - that's probably the earliest version of the procedural (focus on the investigative method) - and trace right through to CSI and its ilk. I suspect you'd find that the successful ones in terms of ratings fit the zeitgeist of the day - as CSI obviously does - but the memorable ones will be the ones like Starsky and Hutch with the focus on the characters.

[shanaqui]

I'm not sure why you thought I was confused? I did crime fiction, like I said: I do know the difference. The pure police procedural was, according to the lecturer at least (since I don't have anything I can personally cite right now as proof), a short-lived genre, as I said, but elements of it are retained in a lot of crime novels (for example, in the work of the authors I mentioned in my previous comment). Hence my assumption, following the same pattern, that some elements of it are likely to be continued in modern cop shows (this regardless of whether they are considered to be procedurals or not). That's what I was trying to say. Due South (as an example), as far as I can remember, has very little of the police procedural: it's focused on the characters and the comedy (which largely arises from the characters and their situation anyway), and often, drama. NCIS has much more of the procedural about it, but it has appeal in quirky/interesting characters whose safety and continuing presence on the show is important to the viewers (NCIS without Ducky or Abby would probably be a deal-breaker for me). I thought of early episodes of Supernatural as a, well, supernatural version of the cop show, though it developed to a much more specialised focus on the characters of (mainly) Sam and Dean. Given the focus on figuring out how to kill the creatures, at first, though, that's quite procedural-like: if monsters were real and you had to hunt them, SPN might give you a bit of a clue how to begin. It needn't have gone the way it has, either: it could have kept the monster-of-the-week format and been very close to a cop show, except that cop shows have a criminal-of-the-week.

I don't watch much tv, though: I watch NCIS, Supernatural and Merlin. (And I've seen all of Due South, but that's not exactly current.) So while I suspect things about the trends in modern tv, I can't point to evidence, just extrapolate from what I know about crime fiction in novels.

Sherlock Holmes is very iffy, as a procedural, because there isn't a focus on the investigative method. The focus is Holmes. If the focus was on the investigative method, you'd actually be made aware of all the evidence in the course of the narrative, and of his deductions from it. The Holmes novels and short stories are somewhat episodic in a similar way, though. If I had my notes here, I'd be able to explain exactly what the characteristics of a procedural are, and explain how modern cop shows I know of fit/don't fit, but it'd probably be boring anyway. *grin*

[briarwood]

I didn't think you were confused; I used that term in general, though you did seem to be using 'procedural' where I'd use 'crime drama'.

I can't speak to trends in literature, but it wouldn't be correct to call it a short-lived trend in television, as a number of pure procedurals are still running - who can say how long it will last?

Given the focus on figuring out how to kill the creatures, at first, though, that's quite procedural-like: if monsters were real and you had to hunt them, SPN might give you a bit of a clue how to begin.

True enough, there were strong procedural elements in the beginning of...wait. Monsters aren't real?

[shanaqui]

Possibly a difficulty in my academic knowledge of books failing to translate to talking about tv, since I know mainly 20th century crime fiction, mainly in print. The definition in my head of police procedural has some rules that most crime dramas break, so they cannot be pure police procedurals by it. (E.g. in NCIS, sometimes they will circumvent the law.) I think most of what are considered police procedurals mix in other elements to greater and lesser degrees, but I couldn't say due to lack of knowledge (NCIS is not a wide enough sample!).