briarwood | Thoughts on "dub-con" as a fanfic kink

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Thoughts on "dub-con" as a fanfic kink

This is a response to

thefrogg's post about consent issues in fanfic and to

theladyscribe's response in which she describes one of her own fics as possibly "dub-con" (Dubious consent).

This is a touchy subject. Here's where I have to insert my standard feminist disclaimer: I am not discussing real life. I'm discussing fanfic, and specifically sexual-fantasy fanfic. In real life, there's no such thing as "dubious consent". In real life, either informed consent exists, or it's rape. Please don't think I can't make that distinction between fiction, fantasy and reality.

In fanfic, we're not dealing with the real world. In putting warnings on fanfic, we must acknowledge real-world issues, because (hello!) our readers are real people. If we don't acknowledge that real-world issues affect them, then the warning is pointless. So I see

thefrogg's point, that a story where consent is less than explicit might be triggering for some readers.

The second part of this issue is the ages-old argument about the reasons for warnings/info and suchlike. Without reiterating the arguments here, the result is, broadly speaking, two camps of "warn-ers". One camp who warn "responsibly" i.e. who conscientiously include warnings for everything contained within a fic, and another camp who regard warnings as optional and might fail to warn if, for example, the "warning" might also be a spoiler.

For the reader, particularly the reader who wishes to avoid certain kinds of fic, this presents a dilemma. I want to be able to say of

theladyscribe's story "since there was no warning for non-con or dub-con, clearly the sex was intended to be consensal." To me, this is self-evident. In the story, Jess wakes up to find Dean touching her; they go on to have sex. In canon Dean can be a misogynist pig, but I don't see him as a man who goes where he's not wanted; so it wouldn't occur to me to think of the scenario as non-consensual. Dean wouldn't have done it if he didn't have reason to believe she would consent.

Unfortunately, every fanfic author who fails to warn for a rape scene in a fic makes a liar out of me on that presumption.

This is a pain in the ass. Because for me, dub-con is my second biggest fanfic kink. *points to standard feminist disclaimer above* And one of my biggest pet peeves is fics labelled "Dub-con" when they're really, really not.

There's an obvious conflict here betwen "dub-con" as a warning of potentially triggering material, and "dub-con" as a kink. If all it takes to make a story dub-con is the absence of a "yes", then my kink is doomed to frustration. I think there's an argument for presuming consent in fanfic, because we presume an awful lot of things in fanfic. Characterisation is based not solely on the story text, but on what the fanfic author expects the reader to know about the characters. When I wrote Ceremony of Innocence which ends with Sam leaving Dean and getting on a plane, I expected the reader to be aware that Dean's afraid of flying, that Sam knows Dean's afraid of flying and therefore Sam's choice of transport should mean something more than just it's the quickest way to get to California. Similarly, if I write - or read - a PWP, I presume the sex is consensual unless something (including the warnings on the fic) suggests otherwise. That's assuming the characters involved aren't canonically disposed to rape...but if they were I don't think I'd be reading about them.

Actual dub-con (and here I'm talking about dub-con-as-kink) is very hard to write. It's not something written "by mistake". All too often, fics labelled as "dub-con" are not "dubuious" at all: it's a label for consensual sex with some BDSM elements or for rape fic in which the victim experiences orgasm. These are not dub-con.

True dub-con rides the razor's edge of consent. It's the scenario in which consent is given, but not freely. It's the scenario in which the person wants it, really wants it, but is contrained to say no for social or political or emotional reasons. It's the fuck-or-die scenario which forces a couple not ready for it into a sexual relationship. It's the "sex-pollen" scenario where they don't realise there's an outside force acting on them.

I'm going to give examples from my own fic, not to show off my stories, but because only on my own fic can I speak with authority about the intent behind the words. Whether the intent carries through to the final result is for others to judge. For the sake of clarity, both of these are Supernatural fics featuring incest.

My own Restrain, Release (Sam/Dean) is not dub-con, because although Sam took advantage of Dean being drugged/drunk and Dean didn't specifically consent to sex on that night, the boys had discussed it beforehand and Dean's consent is implied because he has a safeword and chooses not to use it.

Dean shivered, and this time not because of the cold. Sam's casual tone unnerved him a little, as did the fact that he'd apparently slept through being stripped, bound and gagged. That just wasn't possible.

"Good boy," Sam said softly, in the same tone he would have used talking to a dog. "Now, listen carefully, Dean. There are three rules. One: you will obey every order I give you, at once, no arguments. That shouldn't be too difficult; I know how you love to take orders."

Fuck you! Dean thought, but he made no sound. He could almost remember... They went to a club last night, one of those places with live music and... But the memory danced out of reach.

"Two," Sam went on relentlessly. "You may not talk without permission. Three: you may not come without permission." Sam blew gently on Dean's chest, across his nipples; to Dean Sam's breath felt hotter than it should have. "Do you understand the rules, Dean? Make noise for yes."

Dean grunted past the cloth in his mouth.

"Good boy," Sam said again. Dean half-expected him to pat his head. "Do you remember your safe-word?"

For a moment, Dean had no idea what he meant, because he couldn't remember them planning anything like this. Then the memory came back to him, a conversation they'd had weeks before. Dean had told Sam that fancy safe-words were dumb and you should just say stop.

My story In Vino Veritas (John/Dean) is dub-con because although Dean gives consent, actively participates in the sex and has an orgasm, he has very conflicted feelings about sex with John and (although this is not specified in the story) he's fifteen years old; legally and morally too young to consent.

John's hand gripped Dean's forearm, preventing him from leaving. "Dean, wait. I ain't so drunk as that."

"Bullshit. You can't even stand."

John's grip on his arm tightened. Dean met his hooded eyes, trying to understand. John looked like he wanted to say something, but no words came.

But Dean understood. His father needed him.

Dean swallowed past the tightness in his throat, and nodded slowly. "It's okay, Dad." He withdrew his arm from John's grip and stripped off his t-shirt. He stood and unzipped his pants. Please god don't let Sammy wake up... Dean removed his underpants and socks, leaving everything in a heap on the floor. He straightened and stood, naked, before his father.

John gazed at him for a moment, long enough for Dean to squirm under the scrutiny. Without speaking, John pushed back the blanket. Dean, shivering in the cold, lay down beside him.

(For some readers the age issue and father/son power dynamic will shift the above story from dub-con to non-con; that's fine. Everyone's mileage differs a little and I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me on this. That's kind of the point. True dub-con should seem like non-con to some readers.)

For me, a dub-con scenario has two essential elements. First that the dominant partner in the sex has no reason, within the scene itself, to think the sex is non-consensual. In my John/Dean example, you can argue that John should have no reason to presume consent from Dean (and you'd be right!) But within the scene itself, Dean voluntarily gets into bed with John.

Similarly in "sex pollen" and "fuck-or-die" scenarios, the participants generally do consent to the sex within the actual scene. Whether that consent can be considered genuine depends on the wider context: did a relationship exist between them prior to the incident? Would these two people ever have slept together if some outside force hadn't interfered? If there was a pre-existing attraction, were there other things keeping them apart and what's the likelihood that they would have overcome those things on their own?

The second essential element in dub-con is this: if you were hypothetically able to ask the non-dominant partner (or both of them for a sex-pollen story where both were equally affected), after the event, whether or not there was consent he or she would answer either "yes" or "I don't know". That "yes" may be self-deception, but he or she must believe it.

There's another dub-con scenario, one which I've almost never seen in fanfic: the scenario where one partner genuinely has no idea that the other isn't freely consenting to the sex. Most slave!fic could take that line, as a slave, by definition is not free to refuse a master, but I've rarely seen a fic that handles it well. Admittedly, I've read a lot less of that genre in the past few years, but the general line in slave!fic seems to be either a) they're in love, so the consent issues inherent in the master/slave relationship are ignored, or b) it's rape or non-con, or presumed consensual in the same way prostitution is "consensual".

I would really love to see a slave!fic in which a loving master is genuinely shocked when his slave, given the capacity to consent, turns around and says "no, I'm leaving". But I guess that wouldn't suit the slashy need for a happy ending.

Threaded | Flat

There's an obvious conflict here betwen "dub-con" as a warning of potentially triggering material, and "dub-con" as a kink.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I have various kinks. Dub-con is solidly among them. Some of my kinks, are serious triggers for other people. I am annoyed that there's no common labeling differences between "if you're triggered by X, maybe avoid this story" variety, and "if you like X, this story is for you."

Interesting bit of meta. I've wrestled with my interest in non-con/dub-con for a while, and interestingly, the more I've been exposed to it, the less it's become a kink. I think that might be the hooboy! slash phenomenon coming into play. At first, you're just excited to know that something exists and that other people do this thing. Then the first flush of joy and novelty wears off, and you start noticing just how bad so much of what you're reading is. And it's a lot harder to find 'good' dub-con than it is to find 'good' slash.

Hi! Thanks for contributing to what is turning out to be a very interesting topic (or in my mind, entire web of topics).

I keep trying to point out that the point of my entire essay was story construction, but I think I'm just going to give in and drift with the topic discussion.

I think it's not just an argument over dub-con as a possible trigger point vs. dub-con as a kink - it's the interpretation of the whole warnings system. Are warnings listing contents that might be triggers? Or are they possible kinks? Personally, I use them as triggers. Perhaps we need to start adding (kink) or (possible trigger) after things. Or having separate kinks and warnings lines. I don't know. My headings get complicated enough as it is.

When I first started reading

metafandom I fell on my head a lot when there were debates about warnings. My background in fandom was low-porn, high-plot, and my experiences with warnings were not with these kinds of 'trigger' issues so much as "If I'd known this pairing was going to be in the background of your fic I wouldn't have read it!" or "You labelled this Naruto/Sasuke when it's really Sasuke/Naruto!" (Good old Naruto fandom.)

I realised that often when I was arguing with people about warnings, we were doing it in such an abstract way that we didn't realise we were talking about different things. What I was talking about were more often than not 'labels' - markers like pairing or genre to tell the prospective reader what the story is about. (I've written some fics that I didn't want to put pairing labels on, which is where I started having conflict with people who advocated warnings for everything.)

When discussions got a bit more explicit I started to get a better picture. When people started talking about 'triggers' I realised that as attached as people can be to OTPs, reading Sasuke/Naruto when you thought you were getting Naruto/Sasuke isn't likely to be a traumatic experience.

Basically what I'm getting at is that I think there needs to be a distinction between 'warnings', which alert the reader to potentially disturbing or upsetting content, and 'labels', which hint at what the story is about. Or to put it even more simply, labels are there to attract readers and warnings are there to, in a sense, turn them away.

I'm not sure that 'dub-con' is really that easily containable with the examples you give above. Obviously, again, we're talking fiction only here.

I'm very fond of the entire variety of fic that deals with consent issues, from mild to noncon/rapefic. And the warning/advertising categories that float around are pretty diverse, and unfortunately very vague too - you have ambiguous consent, dub-con, coercion, non-con, rape... all, I would argue, potentially overlapping but not necessarily describing the same thing. People are interpreting these differently, and will therefore use them with different meanings, which doesn't help either.

My personal favourite are blackmail-type fics, which I would usually label as dub-con (because it's a more common fandom term), although coercion would be more precise. Though others would put it firmly under non-con. I don't think it's possible to come up with (or standardise) an interpretation that will be acceptable for everybody, because subjective interpretations will always differ.

Outside the sexual content, for example, I throw a fit (and boycott the fic) if a header spoils me for character death, and won't warn for it either apart from vague 'darkfic/disturbing content'. A lot of people, on the other hand, really want to be warned for this, and making everybody happy just doesn't seem to be possible.

I'd add another category: the category where the non-POV character has reason to think there isn't consent, but the reader knows there is. (Generally the non-POV character is dominant, but not always, or it doesn't even have to be a sort of sex where that matters.)

The simplest form of this is just lots of alcohol, and one person thinks they're taking advantage of the other's intoxication. But since the drunk character is the POV character, we really know that they're all for it, and would be sober, too.

I've seen authors manage to pull this off from both sides at once -- i.e. they *both* think they're taking advantage of their drunk friend (whom they've been secretly lusting after). And while I realize it's a silly storyline, it's also, honestly, a bulletproof story-kink of mine.

It doesn't have to be alcohol -- sex pollen, spells gone awry (hello, HP fandom), etc.

Sam took advantage of Dean being drugged/drunk and Dean didn't specifically consent to sex on that night, the boys had discussed it beforehand and Dean's consent is implied because he has a safeword and chooses not to use it.

A lot of what you say in this post is very interesting, but I find your explanation that that story is fully consensual somewhat unsettling. Even if Sam didn't purposefully drug Dean, he "took advantage" of him being non-consensually drugged by equally non-consensually stripping him, trussing him up, and gagging him while he was unconscious from drugs he had not agreed to take.

Yes, AFTER all these non-consensual things had been done to Dean, he did not use his safeword when he was no longer unconscious (given that he's still drugged enough at that point that he can't remember anything that happened, I'm not sure how valid that consent is, but that's a point for another day), but unless they had specifically discussed, and Dean had specifically agreed to, Sam doing all those things to Dean when he was drugged and unable to say no (and when he had not consented to being drugged), Sam had no consent, implied or otherwise, and the fact that Dean eventually enjoyed despite the advantage that had been taken of him doesn't change that fact.

Oh yay, more discussion!

I like what you say here, and I think you're right that there's an issue because of the terminology. I was warning for dub-con as a possible trigger, rather than a kink (though I have since changed the warning from "dub-con" to "possible trigger"). To my mind, the two are quite different: warning for dub-con as a possible trigger implies that the sex is not necessarily the focus of the story, whereas warning (advertising?) for dub-con as a kink would mean that the sex is the point.

Falling back on my own fic as an example, as I've mentioned in my own post, I wrote the story without considering the implications of consent, partially because I know my version of Jess, but also because, like you, I strongly believe that Dean doesn't go places he's not wanted. And besides, the sex is not the point. The emotional implications of the story is what I want to focus on, and the sex is kind of a means to that end. It was only after the fact that I realized there was a possible implication of dubious consent.

... Um, I'm not entirely sure that all makes sense. It's late here, and I need to sleep.

There's another dub-con scenario, one which I've almost never seen in fanfic: the scenario where one partner genuinely has no idea that the other isn't freely consenting to the sex.

One of my favorite characters is incredibly susceptible to this (and I've alluded to it in his past a few times in fic, as have a couple of other writers, though I can't think of any extended treatments).

He has this very fundamentalist conception of sex and power and gender roles, which leads to his belief that women and/or subordinates shouldn't be allowed to say no to him, sexually or otherwise. (This has led to harassment lawsuits in canon.) Turn that around and put him with a man he looks up to, however, and he thinks he isn't allowed to turn anything down.

...and, man, I wish there were more fic going into that, because I do like to watch him cry. (Your fiction-is-not-reality disclaimer is in full force here, mind you.)

I would really love to see a slave!fic in which a loving master is genuinely shocked when his slave, given the capacity to consent, turns around and says "no, I'm leaving".

I think I heard a song like that once.

But I guess that wouldn't suit the slashy need for a happy ending.

I can see that. Hm. Maybe if the slave were then paired up with someone else? (I've never written slave!fic anyway, though, so I'm a little out of my depth here.)

Very interesting thoughts; thanks for typing them up!

Oh, I hear you. One of my favorite dub-con fics isn't labeled as such at all. It's a surprisingly dark story about high school and roles and the characters are so very confused about what they're doing that all they can really agree on is that it's fucked up. And one of the boys is only in this rather twisted sexual relationship because he doesn't really see any other choice and goes along with it, especially in the beginning. I can definitely see it being a trigger for some just as it's a kink for me and each time I think to rec it, I end up debating over whether to inform the person I'm reccing it to about the rather dubious consent because the author doesn't warn for it herself.

(Here via

metafandom)

I tend to use my warnings to serve the duel function of both warning and enticing. Like, if I warn for non-con I know that's a squick for some people (who'll avoid it) but it's a kink for others (who'll read it).

Your examples of what you consider dub-con and what you don't are pretty interesting; personally, I would consider both examples dub-con (the second one for the reasons you mentioned and the first one because I don't think drugged/drunk Dean was capable of giving consent and Sam took advantage of that).

This kind of reminded me of this idea I heard once that drunken sex is never truly consensual sex because a drunk person can't really give consent, but I don't necessarily agree with that--like, I think if in your example Sam and Dean were both drunk and decided to have sex I would see that as consensual, but in your example it seemed more like Sam was taking advantage of Dean's drunkenness so he could have sex with him, which I definitely think is dub-con.

Anyway, that's all I really had to say on the matter, I guess I'll take my thinking cap off now. ^___~ (Oh, also? If you want SPN non-con or dub-con recs I can totally hook you up. I'm just saying.)

(via metafandom)

There's another dub-con scenario, one which I've almost never seen in fanfic: the scenario where one partner genuinely has no idea that the other isn't freely consenting to the sex.

I can personally only think of one story I've read that fits this definition (in Sentinel fandom). (I might've read others but they're not coming to mind.) I'm not surprised -- it's partially rare because it's difficult to pull off, I think, but also I think it's rare because (although many people can torment characters six ways from Sunday), that particularly weird kind of mindfuckery is queasily unpleasant and reminds people uncomfortably of things they might have done to others that maybe the others weren't so keen on.

Not, like, rape or anything -- but it's this kind of queasymaking Extreme Sports version of Like That Time I Made My Sister Watch Aliens With Me.

I write a lot of fic in the dub-con/non-con/rape/violent rape contiuum, and I write with a variety of genres from humor (which drives some readers nuts because rape is never supposed to be funny) to full on sickening horror (which is too much for other readers to stomach). So I've given some thoughts about the subject.

The first thing that occurrs to me is that people tend to treat rape like an on-off switch. You are or you aren't. And if you are, you must be traumatized to the some set degree, and if you aren't you have no right to be upset -- but it seems to me that it just isn't that easy, because there are two dynamics going on: The intentions of the rapist, and the emotional state of the victim before/during and after the act.

For example: You can have a "sweet" guy sweep a girl off her feet, make her feel loved an appreciated, ending with a night of sex that she fully and enthusiastically agrees to, only for her to discover later that the guy only had sex with her on a dare or as a joke so he could brag about it to his pals, or for some other low-life reason. Does she feel violated? Holy heck yes. Was it rape? Er... that's not so clear.

Another example: An 9 year old plays "doctor" with a 13 year old friend who has recently got ahold of a porno mag. The 9 year old doesn't really know what she's consenting to and finds it rather uncomfortable. The 13 year old probably should have known better but wasn't being malicious. They go on to play other games after curiosity is satisfied. Later when they grow up and realize what they've done. The no longer 13 year old feels hideously guilty, the no longer 9 year old shrugs it off as kids screwing around, in this case literally. Dubious con? rape?

Neither of these is the same as someone being dragged onto a beach and gang raped with bottles.

On the fanfic end of things you have as much latitude and more especially if you consider if the motivation for the fic is to titilate, surprise, horrify, sadden or set up for hurt comfort.

I guess this is a long way of saying sometimes the context matters more than the actual acts.

(here via

metafandom)

There's another dub-con scenario, one which I've almost never seen in fanfic: the scenario where one partner genuinely has no idea that the other isn't freely consenting to the sex.

I've actually seen this done a couple of times in SGA fandom -

neery's Foolproof and Incapable of Error is the best example I can think of. It's quite rare, though, I agree.

Wow, I must me more of a sensitive nilly than I thought. Because of the lot of scenarios you describe I would file more under non-con than dub-con.

For example, the John/Dean story to me sounds like it should come with a statory rape warning at least. If we accept that 15 is underage and underage people technically can't consent then it's a noncon. And since John presumably knows that Dean is 15 then he would also know that it is statory rape what he is doing. Since fandom doesn't like mean terms (non-con usually sounds nicer than rape for example) I guess rather than statory rape one would label it as underage (personally, for clarities sake I often wish fandom would lable fic where one is over age and one is under statory rape and reserve underage for fic where both are underage; but it's not like fandom is gonna care much for my personal desire for more logical structure in warnings).

I would also file all sex pollen or villain made them do it fics as non con.

Even if neither character is guilty of the non-con a non-con situation still takes place. If there is a loving couple who adore each other and a villain comes and holds a gun on them and forces them to have sex with each other in front of him then it's still a rape. And the villain is the rapist even if he doesn't put his genitals into anyone. If a villain forces one character to rape the other, then both characters have been raped because both were forced into sex. Hence, non-con for both.

A fic where a villain drugs somebody or orders them to have sex with a third person is still a non con for me. The third person assumes that he is having sex with a person with unimpaired judgement but we know better and the villain knows better. It might be dub-con for the third person, but the overall story is still non-con-ish to me.

In real life, there's no such thing as "dubious consent". In real life, either informed consent exists, or it's rape.

I really disagree with this. Heck, I would be close to saying the opposite. In fiction we can much more easily make judgement on characters because we theoretically perfect knowledge of what is going on in their heads. But in real life?

People constantly hook up with people at parties while both of them are drunk. Technically/Legally both have impaired judgement. There might not be one person taking advantage of the other, but if they are impaired then they do not have the ability to consent. Hence non-con technically. Yet many people intentionally use alcohol to lower their inhibitions because otherwise they would be too shy to approach anybody. Partying is a recognized way to meet somebody. Alcohol is usually consumed at dates etc. Already existing couples might go to a party, get drunk and go home and have sex. Technically, impaired judgement. Technically they shouldn't be having sex. Yet obviously nobody is gonna obey that rule just for clarities sake.

Just like boss/employee will always be an affected situation yet that's not gonna stop things like bosses marrying their secretaries, having lots of babies and living happily ever after. Same for students who marry their professors.

To me in fic it's usually less a question of non-con vs. not non-con. It seems to me that it usually is more a question of the degree of non-con that people are willing to cope with. In real life there is no distinction between rape and non-con. Non-con is rape. End of story.

But in fiction I often get the impression that non-con vs. rape might reflect the degree of violence used. With rape meaning straight out violent mean spirited rape with a straight forward unwilling and in pain victim. And non-con covering less violent versions too like under the influence of drugs, coercion, fondling and seducing somebody who is tied up and imprisoned.

All of these might be rape/non-con, but it can still a difference to the reader. They might be willing to read a non-con situation, but not if it is brutal and violent or not when a character they like is portrayed as manipulative, brutal or villaineous. (personally? I would like an additional "dark" label for any fic that has normally good character behaving evil)

I would collectively file sex pollens, sex or die or slave fic into the non-con corner. But precisely because they already are one can see it as redundant to label it non-con in addition to their already existing label. if it says slave fix or sex pollen fic it already gives the reader an idea what to expect and they can decide whether this degree of impaired judgement is something they are comfortable with.

Take slave fic. If it was labeled slave fic and otherwise suggested that it's gonna contain sex (and sex before the slave is freed), my guess would be that it contains only happy fluffy sex that the slave enjoys. The fact that the slave enjoys it doesn't change that it's a non-con situation because even though he wants to give consent he can't. Just like a 3 or 8 or 13 year old can't give consent. If a slave fic was labeled non-con in addition to slave fic I would assume that sex takes place where it is obvious that the slave isn't really comfortable with it but that it's not really violent. And if it was labeled slavefic and rape I would assume that there is straight forward rape with violence and injuries and what not.

Drunk!fic is the same to me. I don't mind drunk!fic. I emotionally don't consider it very non-con-y. The drunk!fic label suggest to me that it's likely gonna be a light hearted fic with alcohol and sex in it. If I was the kind of person who has issues with alcohol during sex I might want to steer clear of it, but other than that write away. I have to admit that I find it more bothersome if one person is clearly sober while the other is clearly drunk. And whether the person who is drunk is lucid enough to be the aggressor and believable as the aggressor. And whether or not the non-drunk person was counting on the other's drunkenness or just stumbled into it by accident. (which actually brings me to an interesting canon example, but this is getting too long for one reply)

I'm actually stumped about what would constitute a real dub-con. Maybe a fic where the POV character doesn't know and the reader isn't sure either. When it's intentionally left open.

And there is sort of the bodice ripper example or the moral no stories, which is a category I rather like. I have always had a soft spot for hero/villain pairings. Where I can buy a situation where the hero is attracted to the villain and wants to have sex with him but can't bring himself to yes because it would shatter their whole moral foundation. And trhe villain is all "I know you want me, I know you can't say it, therefore I'm taking you without you saying yes, taking the responsibility away from you". In real life now that is a dub-con that would never fly and be straight up non-con. Because only bad things has come out of men running around they think they know that women mean yes when they say no. Or that they know that a woman wants better than she herself or contrary to what she is saying. But in fic? What is it? Non-con? Probably. But it's one that if well written always leaves me stumped.

But yes, generally I tend to fall fast on the side of non-con. Either impaired judgement (either through outside force or though substances) takes place or it doesn't.

I don't know that I have anything to contribute to this, except that I find it incredibly amusing that I am at this moment listening to a media show discussing how valid George Carlin's 7 Words still are, what constitutes appropriate warnings for parents, and where people's offense lines lie. Their general conclusion is that there's no way to draw straight lines because everyone's situation is different.

I would really love to see a slave!fic in which a loving master is genuinely shocked when his slave, given the capacity to consent, turns around and says "no, I'm leaving". But I guess that wouldn't suit the slashy need for a happy ending.

SGA faqndom, and while Rodney's reaction when John leaves isn't explicit (and I suspect he expected this response) and you don't see just how much he loves John until the very end of the story, it's the closest to your description I've seen - and it certainly isn't a happy ending. Although

lavvyan does intend to write a sequel it stands alone IMO.

Dearest (http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=13260)

In case you're interested, I posted about your slavefic comment in this post (http://community.livejournal.com/orig_slavefic/44346.html) at

orig_slavefic.

So. I was googling dub-con to acquire a strict definition, and this is what I found. This is a couple years late but here's my two cents...

In general, I agree with the OP's opinion on what falls under each category. I also believe that dub-con also applies in the opposite direction; In your example of the John/Dean fic, I would say that John's drunken state makes it potentially impossible for him to consent to the act. Dean's part would be entire consensual (though not legally, as pointed out repeatedly). The combination makes a solid "dub-con" warning/advertisement, for me.

Then again, as is the point of fanfic, I would also probably gloss over the dubious consensual nature and call it good word porn. A bit disturbing for some, but good nonetheless.

I don't have a dreamwidth account (not that I wouldn't love one) but if you want to comment on my comment or say anything else, you can email me at starinafay @ gmail.com.

^^

~Kei

Again with the being years late for this discussion!

As someone who's really only just discovered fanfics (courtesy of Cherik), I've been a little surprised to discover my love of dubcon, as this wasn't an aspect of my sexuality I was aware of before. But non-con leaves me absolutely cold. And, as already stated, 'dubcon' is a pretty vague category - there are scenarios I would happily acknowledge should be warned as dubcon (e.g. character agrees, but doesn't actually want it, or is doing it for some other reason such as blackmail or whatever), but that don't appeal to me. Personally I only like situations where the character says no, but on some level means yes. Which sounds awful... I'm holding onto the 'It's okay because it's fiction' lifeboat pretty firmly here.

Threaded | Flat

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(here from metafandom)

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degrees of non-con

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Hmm....

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